Financing a Smooth and Sustainable Recovery

Michael Torrance:

Welcome to Sustainability Leaders, I'm Michael Torrance, Chief Sustainability Officer with BMO Financial Group. On the show, we will talk with leading sustainability practitioners from the corporate, investor, academic, and NGO communities to explore how this rapidly evolving field of sustainability is impacting global investment, business practices, and our world.

Legal disclaimer:

The views expressed here are those other participants and not those of Bank of Montreal, its affiliates, or subsidiaries.

Dan Barclay:

Welcome, and thanks for joining us for a conversation on financing a smooth and sustainable transition as we all work towards a net zero target by 2050. The fight against climate change has entered a new stage, action around the transition to a lower carbon world involves an increasing number of parts and begs the question, how can we ensure that is equitable and smooth, and that we don't sacrifice parts of society and the industry, as our companies large and small move towards a net zero world?

Dan Barclay:

Today, we will extend our conversation on ESG and Sustainability to how this transition to a lower carbon footprint affects the natural resource companies as corporates map their transition to where net zero, and the banks, and industry's role in financing the transition? Today, I'm joined by three great guests, Martha Hall Findlay, Chief Sustainability Officer at Suncor. Caitlin MacLean, Senior Director of Innovation Finance at the Milken Institute. And Jonathan Hackett, Managing Director and Head of BMO's Sustainable Finance Group.

Dan Barclay:

Today we're going to bring to life three distinct perspectives, the need for innovation, moving beyond traditional examples of sustainable energy, wind and solar, to looking at new ways for carbon reduction. Helping finance innovation from pilot stage to revenue generating commercial stage projects. The collaboration between public and private sectors, how do we assist in financing the change? The socioeconomic cloud of climate change, and how financial institutions can accelerate this transition?

Dan Barclay:

We've been looking at new ways to finance, BMO has been leading the way with sustainable finance commitments, BMO's committed to advance our client's sustainability objectives by mobilizing 300 billion in capital to clients, to pursue sustainable outcomes through green, social, and sustainable lending, underwriting an advisory and services, and investment by 2025.

Dan Barclay:

As we get started, I'll remind you of our BMO disclosures attached to the web link enclosed, and at the bottom invitation you received. Additionally, we have immediate interest in the session, so there'll be reporters on the line. As we look to start, I'd like to highlight that today, June 1st, marks natural indigenous history month. A time for Canadians to celebrate and honor the history, heritage, and diversity of indigenous peoples in Canada.

Dan Barclay:

Following the recent tragic and painful news regarding the remains of 215 children out of the Kamloops Indian Residential School. Our thoughts are with the families, communities, and indigenous peoples impacted across the country. Let's start a conversation with Martha, Suncor is an example of a company that's leading the change in the energy sector, and a commitment to sustainability that runs right to the top. Martha, it's great to have you here today.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Thanks Dan so much. Thanks for the welcome, for the invitation. If I can just say just following on your comments about the bodies of the kids that were found, I've noticed a lot of reaction about the 215, and I just really want to reemphasize that the tragic events affected so many kids. When we remember the 215, it's so important that we remember everyone including other kids who were killed, who died, who were abused, and the family tragedies that ensued. I just wanted to make that it's a reminder, it's not an event in and of itself.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But to the issue at hand for today's panel, I am indeed the Chief Sustainability Officer for Suncor. Just to put things into context, Suncor is referred to by a number of people around the world as a tar sands company. We don't use that term for some obvious reasons, but being the chief sustainability officer for a company that produces oil out of the oil sands, it's an interesting job.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But I took it for a number of reasons that are very future and forward-looking, and I'm really excited about where we're going to go. Let me just... Suncor is that and it's also other things. I often say we're an oil company, and I catch myself and I say, "No, no, we're an oil company, we're Canada's leading energy company." And we're actually really proud of what we do, we're really proud of the company that we are, we're really proud of how we do things. Just to remind people, it wasn't that long ago, a few decades ago, people said, there's no way you can get oil out of that sand.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And what ensued were some pretty amazing technological innovations, techno wizardry, if you will, people said, there's no way you can do that. And people showed that they could, and it took investment, it took smart, it took creativity, it took investment, both public and private a lot it. And over the decades, what happened was extraordinary from success in terms of business, but also economic prosperity for not only the region of Alberta, but the add on economic prosperity of all of the businesses that support the economic activity that ensued.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It's been a tremendous success, and was always regarded as such. And then a number of years ago when the issues associated with climate change became more clear, so many people ended up being vilified, all these people who would work so hard to develop something that they thought was pretty cool and was addressing and real needs.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And it's tough, I have to say it's tough because no one set out to do bad things, right? And as oil company, we're still providing a product that is in major demand around the world. And I do want to talk about that in a few minutes, but just Suncor itself, it's Canada's leading energy company, we are an oil sands company. We also upgrade, we refine, we distribute, we refine here and in the United States, we have refineries in Ontario, Tabak, and in the states.

Martha Hall Findlay:

We do offshore, we have offshore operations east coast of Canada, as well as Norway, and the UK. We have a full-on distribution network, our Petro Canada Network is certainly a [inaudible] Canadian retail network. We have almost 5 million members of our Petro Canada points, it's one of Canada's largest loyalty programs. We have a lot of engagement with customers, with industrial customers, commercial customers, and end user retail customers.

Martha Hall Findlay:

One thing of note that an awful lot of people still don't know, which I'm very proud of is that through our Petro Canada Network, we established and built the backbone of an electric highway. There'll be added on, but right now you can actually drive coast to coast with an electric vehicle. And recognizing that range anxiety is one of the biggest detriments, or one of the biggest barriers to buying electric vehicles, knowing that you can actually... No, not coast to coast to coast, there aren't even roads to much of our Northern coastline.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But it's a pretty cool thing, and having stations that are maximum 250 kilometers apart allows that to happen. And so we're pretty pleased, we're pretty excited, and that's an example of where we recognize that consumer choice is a really important part of the solution, right? If people have no choice, but to drive an internal combustion car, and that will be the case for an awful lot of people around the world for a long time to come just saying.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But certainly in the more developed countries where we have those opportunities, that's a great thing to be a part of. I do want to talk... And we have over 30,000 team members at Suncor, it's a pretty big company. And we're really excited about the future, we've been doing sustainability actually for a long time. We've supported a carbon price for over 20 years, we have engaged with our... When you talk about ES and G.

Martha Hall Findlay:

I'm really proud of our engagement within indigenous communities, and there's no question, we're on a path and you never do a perfectly, you never do anything perfectly, but we're really proud over 20 years of going from significant employment of indigenous folks in the Suncor team to procurement. To last year even with COVID, our products and service from indigenous companies was almost 10% of Suncor's entire procurement spend.

Martha Hall Findlay:

You don't even want to know how the federal government procurement spend compares, it doesn't very well, I would say. But we're really very proud of that, because it's the economic reconciliation, it's the economic prosperity that's critical. In moving from employment to procurement of products and services to in more recent times full on equity partnerships and finger's costs, we have something else that'll be announced fairly soon, very excited about.

Martha Hall Findlay:

All of those things, in terms of disclosure, we have TCFD, we have GRI, we have Saxby, we have all of those things that we've been complying with for years. We've actually won awards in terms of disclosure, which is something else we're really proud of, but fundamentally it's performance. Fundamentally, we have a really big challenge ahead of us.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And Dan, you talked about the lower carbon footprint and I do what I can to remind people. It's actually not the carbon that's the problem, it's the emissions. We produce an awful lot of oil that goes to petrochemicals, that goes to other products, it goes to your, yes, north face sweatshirt, an awful asphalt, an awful lot of products that use carbon very effectively that are not a problem from a climate change perspective.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It is emissions that are a problem, and I'm not going to lie we're obviously a really big emitter. But on a personal level, I mean, I'm in a solar power user for 20 years. When we talk over the course of this session about where we're going in the future, my view is reality and pragmatism are absolutely critical, there's no question I hear a bit of naivety out there.

Martha Hall Findlay:

The international energy agency report that just came out a week or so ago, there's a pathway to net zero, but if you read the report, part of that would include building a new solar panel farm, a new solar farm the size of currently the world's biggest every single day. I mean, let's talk about, is that in fact realistic in terms of money, in terms of acreage, in terms of transmission, in terms of storage? I mean, this is not going to be easy.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And so one of the things that we're also really looking at is of course, storage, and we look at the Northern Lights Project and in Norway, that involves a number of big producers. We're looking at the big CCUS Project, by the way, it's piping CO2 under the sea, to storage under the sea, a major, major multi-billion Euro announcement from the Dutch Government involving a couple of other major producers. Very interesting to see.

Martha Hall Findlay:

There's no question in Canada, we're looking very carefully at what we might be able to do from a CCUS perspective, because Alberta is actually regarded as one of the world's best locations for storage in terms of pore space. We're looking at that, there is no shame in looking at how do we store emissions? How do we store the CO2? Because if it's the nearest most logical and realistic approach to dealing with this problem, then my view is we need to look at it.

Martha Hall Findlay:

I'll finish off with some of the other opportunities. Suncor is a supporter of the X prize as a member of the Canadian Oil Sands High Industry Alliance. The winner that was just announced as Carbon Cure, or one of the two winners just announced Carbon Cure and really interesting technologies in terms of actually storing CO2, but in the process making better concrete.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And those are the kinds of things that I think are really interesting, and I really do hope we can talk a little bit more about how we deal with climate change in the larger context of global sustainability, global prosperity, the development of the developing world, and not just from a wealthy country perspective.

Dan Barclay:

I think I really liked your reality and pragmatism theme, that to me is probably one of the strongest challenges we have today, as we think about real outcomes. I often hear people thinking about simple issues, or simple solutions, and the complexity of how energy interweaves through all of our economy, and what it means for our prosperity as a nation and for the globe, I think is critical.

Dan Barclay:

And something that we force a transition that caused a different outcome of economic failure is not sustainable in that thought process. And I think it's a wise set of words on reality and pragmatism. I'm very encouraged when I think about some of the progress that Suncor's made, we could go on for hours, I think, in the seriousness that Suncor takes to this. And then all of the places where Suncor is innovating.

Dan Barclay:

I think about how you're actually running the operations today, dramatically different from a footprint that it was three, four years ago which is very different than a decade ago. I think about the way you're thinking about energy intensity, I think about there was a study a couple of weeks ago on particulate matter. And so other areas that we think about emissions, not just carbon and impact on the economy, and efficiency through it.

Dan Barclay:

I'm actually giving your own examples, I shouldn't do that. I should say, Martha, tell us about some of the other aspects when you think about the innovation that Suncor has brought to the question of sustainability.

Martha Hall Findlay:

I mean, we're investing, have invested, and continue to invest in some really interesting technologies, for sure. I mean, we're investor in Enerkem, which converts municipal waste into fuel, because the other part of this is recognizing that the global infrastructure for energy is very fuel-based, right? It's going to be a long time before we have electric vehicles as the only option.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Internal combustion vehicles are going to be around for a long time, and even when the wealthy world ends up moving into EVs, where do you think they go? I mean, there's going to be a lot of demand, but they are fuel-based. To the extent that we can do more in terms of biofuels, then we're using existing infrastructure, existing infrastructure that uses fuel to heat homes.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It's really important to recognize that you just can't change that infrastructure overnight. Whatever we do that actually looks at new versions of fuels, for example, we just announced a major project that we're hoping to do with ATCO in Alberta with respect to hydrogen. Suncor is one of maybe the biggest hydrogen producer in Canada. We need a lot of hydrogen for our upgrade for refining processes, but ATCO produces a lot of natural gas for home heating.

Martha Hall Findlay:

While there's an opportunity to use some of that hydrogen, and especially if we combine it with carbon capture and storage, then it becomes blue hydrogen, clean hydrogen, and that can actually help render cleaner the natural gas mix that is used to heat homes. But that's using existing infrastructure. That's really interesting.

Martha Hall Findlay:

We've invested in LanzaTech, we've invested in LanzaJet, which is biofuels for jets, which is also man, we figure out how to actually have clean fuels, because we're not going to fly on electricity anytime soon. Then we're making real change, I mentioned carbon cure. We've also invested in Savante, which is a new form of carbon capture, which has some really interesting potential.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Like I said, I've been a solar user for 20 years personally. I am a convert, I don't know why most houses and buildings don't have solar panels. That said, that is not the only answer, we have to be able to address the realities of global demand, we have to be able to understand that huge millions of people in India still cook and heat with cow dung countdown, which is absolutely filthy and terrible for you talk about particulates, right? It's unhealthy.

Martha Hall Findlay:

We globally, how do we help developing countries move to economic prosperity? Because we know energy, access to affordable accessible energy is a critical component, and it's absolutely an extra globally entwined with prosperity. How do we not tell the rest of the world, the developing world too bad, so sad, we had a decade of cheap, affordable, easily transportable and easily used fuel as an oil, but you can't?

Martha Hall Findlay:

We have to look at this from a global perspective, we have to look at it from what are the existing infrastructure so that we can continue to use, hence the biofuels, while also looking at the renewable alternatives, the increasing price points of wind and solar, for sure. All the work that's going into electricity storage, all of that, but it's a mix. And there's no question we at Suncor are really excited about looking at all of those things, because we're an energy company and we plan to be a successful energy company for a long time to come.

Dan Barclay:

I love that. Why don't we try and bring Caitlin into the conversation, and I think we're going to have her talk to us a little bit about some of the work that the Milken Institute's done, but Martha, over to you for that.

Martha Hall Findlay:

No, I think Caitlin, over to Caitlin for that.

Dan Barclay:

Over to Caitlin.

Caitlin MacLean:

Yes, no problem. Martha and I are going to quiz each other later. Yes, thank you, Dan. Thank you to you and to the BMO team, long time partners, and really value your collaboration and obviously thought leadership. Also really appreciate a team of Canadians allowing this New Yorker to be on this panel today. I'm really excited for the discussion, the Milken Institute for those who are not familiar, we're a financial and economic think tank.

Caitlin MacLean:

And as a think tank, we do kind of two core activities, probably most well-known for the large convenings that we do, of which BMO has been a really great long time collaborator, but we also do research. And so I oversee our applied research projects that we call our financial innovations labs. Really looking at how you create innovation in the investment opportunities that will then hopefully support innovation in things like new technologies.

Caitlin MacLean:

We've been doing a project recently looking at the ability for the capital markets to help provide really cost-effective financing for companies who are trying to make this transition to a more sustainable future, including having net zero targets. And it's interesting, we've been interviewing probably 75 to 100 different corporates in the US, and in Canada, and some in Europe as well, thinking about kind of where are the needs that they have in terms of their financing? What can they do on their own? And where are there still some of those lingering challenges?

Caitlin MacLean:

And so I would say just two things off the bat, just to keep with the realism theme that Martha and Dan you've both talked about. I think that as we've talked to corporates about what their net zero pledges look like, realistically a very large percentage of those are based on offsets, right? They're based on kind of thinking about what might be possible in the future to use an invest in, to offset emissions.

Caitlin MacLean:

And so I think that just realistically, the amount of investment that's needed in technologies that don't exist yet, or some that are as Martha, was saying on the cusp of commercialization, that's really important. Because I think that realistically most companies at this point do not have a path to a true net zero anytime soon with the existing technologies that we have. I think that that's part of what we're looking at is, what are those kinds of new technologies? What is needed from a company perspective, and then how do investors play a role?

Caitlin MacLean:

And I think what we've seen in terms of kind of core themes there is that, obviously, investing in new technologies is risky. And you don't always have institutional investors who are willing to take kind of early stage development risk. And so the question then becomes, how do you facilitate better collaboration and partnership, with investors technology companies, governments, and the corporates to say, "What are the investment opportunities and the mechanisms through which everyone can give a little, but then win a lot?"

Caitlin MacLean:

And so I think, we're seeing investors who obviously have their own sustainability mandates, are very interested in ESG. Not yet necessarily always so flexible in terms of what they're willing to give up though. I think, in a lot of these conversations, we talk about what the corporates need to do. Energy companies, Martha, just obviously mentioned quite a bit about what Suncor is doing.

Caitlin MacLean:

And at the same time, we do need to think about what investors are going to be willing to do themselves, because you'll see that, with the growth of the green bond market, for example, that happens for a variety of reasons, the need for project financing for better projects, but also because a green bond fundamentally looks like a pure vanilla bond, right? It's not very different for investors to actually put in their portfolio.

Caitlin MacLean:

And so I think we're what we're trying to do is come up with sort of short, medium, and long-term financing models that in the early stage could be kind of the path of least resistance, like a green bond to get people into the market. But then you will have to see an evolution of something that looks maybe a bit like a riskier capital, if you're willing to put capital in earlier stages of the kind of technology development, where maybe an investor wouldn't have done that before, but because they now see that that type of investment will help lower the carbon footprint of their overall portfolio.

Caitlin MacLean:

And maybe they're willing to look at their risk return profile a little bit differently. We're starting to see that, we're starting to see some interesting kind of medium-term financing models. And then obviously, on the longer-term, thinking about the role of government and policy, again, kind of talking earlier about disclosures, and what the European Union, US, and Canada are all doing in terms of trying to standardize, and better streamline disclosures especially around environmental and social factors.

Caitlin MacLean:

We're optimistic about the demand for sustainable investment alongside the very strong need that the companies and communities have to really make that investment. As Martha said, it's fundamentally shifting all of our infrastructure over the next decades. I think that we're interested in kind of hearing from certainly the BMO side, as well as from Martha, kind of where are there continued kind of challenges in terms of reaching that financing?

Caitlin MacLean:

One of the things that we've been talking to folks about is, the role of tax equity financing, are there alternative joint venture models? Are there lessons learned from things like yield CO's for alternative technologies that aren't necessarily commercial scale yet, but might be a revenue generating, enough where you could securitize some type of pool? We're going through a whole host of financing models, and kind of testing, and picking the tires to see what would work and what doesn't.

Caitlin MacLean:

But I think, the question as I said, is really I guess, for Martha as well is, where are there opportunities where the corporate side, and the energy side can really work with investors, again, in a way that maybe is a path of least resistance at this moment before they're really willing to shift their kind of risk return profile? And can we help to kind of design further design some of those investments to make them more standardized, to scale them up to the ticket size that investors need, to really allocate capital, and actually just really scale these technologies that are needed to get companies realistically to a path for net zero?

Dan Barclay:

I think Caitlin, you raised a bunch of really interesting foundational issues, right? The first off is, today we have investors who are changing their fundamental mandate from making money, or making the highest returns, my highest returns actually have to have a social consequence, and social broadly defined, ESG, which I think is a very fundamental change in investing market that's already happening or happened, even when I think about how many large investors today don't have an ESG requirement to how they invest, I think is very, very few.

Dan Barclay:

The second is, and I think it's a really interesting one, we have actually never seen this much capital mode mobilized for innovation in our lifetimes. And when I give you some examples, think about how we're evaluating EV trucks, that still have never put a truck on the ground, and have billions raised, and billions of opportunities.

Dan Barclay:

I actually think the amount of money going into innovation is extraordinarily high, and as well founded, and I think we all understand the basic fundamentals of investing is you have to make money, and eventually. And so it's the construct of how do you make money and how do you get there? But we're in a world where I wouldn't even argue 24 months ago, people couldn't see a future, where the innovation was required and that the opportunity was there.

Dan Barclay:

And today I think has changed materially, and it sounds like your surveys are yielding very, very similar results. Maybe take a few minutes and just talk about some of the corporate feedback you got on public policy, and how public policy needs to be thoughtful, or tweaked, or innovated. And then I think we can go to Martha and really clue in on some of the things she's seeing as well, different governments are doing different things around the world, obviously.

Caitlin MacLean:

Definitely, and I do think that just on the first point that you made in terms of investors fundamentally need to make money. Very true, obviously, I think that what we're seeing from the investor perspective, and the shift there is that, it's also about not wanting to lose money in the long run, right?

Caitlin MacLean:

There is a shift of thinking about, apart from just kind of the traditional kind of pushback around the sort of stranded assets and things like that, is really looking at kind of what are the overall kind of environmental impact of a portfolio? And should you be willing to be more flexible when you get paid back, right? Either the time horizon or the frequency through which you are getting paid back to offset some of the risks of potential loss in your portfolio.

Caitlin MacLean:

I do think that there is a bit of a shift there, we have a ways to go. And part of that involves the second part of your question, which is public policy. I think that we've been focusing quite a bit with the corporates on, what is the most effective menu of options that public policy can provide? Whether those are carrots or sticks. And I think that we've seen, certainly on the carrot side, increasing the amount of tax credits available for financing.

Caitlin MacLean:

I think that that's obviously been a big component of allowing more flexibility in terms of capital structure. But I also think that, we've talked quite a bit with folks about effective things like loan guarantees, right? Effective loan guarantee programs from various governments, in terms of what really makes sense, and what is useful for a government to provide in terms of subsidies, in terms of insurance like products and saying what is really effective?

Caitlin MacLean:

I think that we have found that and certainly on kind of enabling more tax equity financing, I think, the kind of loan guarantee program as well, but also I think being more creative in terms of off-taker agreements, and what the role of governments can be in trying to be that end buyer, and be that purchaser, to give that stamp of approval, because governments do have perhaps a bit more flexibility in terms of time horizons and thinking about what they're willing to be flexible on.

Caitlin MacLean:

And so I think that that's an important point for corporates as well, is just kind of understanding what is going to enable them to develop and enable more of these technologies. I think that on the stick side is where there's still some questions, right? Of certainly I think, the disclosure component to what the EU has put out in terms of their taxonomy, and their policies, certainly will hopefully be a game changer, in terms of how companies report, and then therefore how the data that we have now can really demonstrate some of this environmental impact?

Caitlin MacLean:

And also really kind of underscore the risk, and the opportunity that companies are facing, and therefore investors are facing as well. I think that there's certain I think, interest around kind of further regulation and policy on the disclosure side, especially for standardization purposes for investors.

Caitlin MacLean:

The next question is then what do you do moving forward, and how much of a stick do you have moving forward in terms of really kind of regulating certain industries, obviously being based in the US, and our headquarters are in California, looking at things like cap and trade which has been successful in California, thinking about kind of where we go from here.

Caitlin MacLean:

I think a lot of corporates that we've been talking to understand that that's a reality, the question is going back to some of Martha's comments, how do you make this a smooth transition? And how are you realistic in terms of what the balance is between coming in really strong, and early with regulations as opposed to being a bit more flexible? I think we're seeing quite a bit of interest in the role of policy, it's not been please stay hands-off.

Caitlin MacLean:

I think that there's been a sense that from the corporates that they do need help, and investors certainly are interested in having that type of standardization. We're definitely seeing a bit more collaboration, not across the board 100%, again, being realistic. We're not saying everyone wants to collaborate, but I do think that there are corporates who are really stepping up.

Caitlin MacLean:

I guess, maybe if I could ask Martha a question on that front, just to see, again, kind of thinking about where policy can actually help enable more innovation for Suncor. As I mentioned, that some of the corporates that we've been talking to a lot of it is about the financing. It's certainly about kind of providing some type of incentives, or subsidies, or things like that.

Caitlin MacLean:

But curious as you guys are looking at the role of policy and where to go from here, are there one or two things that you really think would unlock more innovation to really scale up from your side? Whether it's kind of pure policy, kind of procurement, and things like that, or if it's on the financing side?

Martha Hall Findlay:

It's a great question, and it's a great challenge. Dan, you mentioned the risk and return and the investors are not willing to just go for return on its own. They want high return and to feel good about it, I'm paraphrasing. What we're seeing is that we do not see investors who want to feel good about it and lose money, or not make high return.

Martha Hall Findlay:

That's a fundamental, I mean, we have this balance at Suncor all the time. We have investors who are saying, "Show me the money." We have, of course our investors that make headlines on desire for sustainability and ESG. But if you look carefully at a lot of their portfolios yeah, but they recognize that this kind of transition is not going to happen with a couple million dollars for a startup, which is awesome, don't get me wrong.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But this kind of transition is going to take big companies, and big governments, and an awful lot of collaboration. I mean, we saw what just happened in terms of global vaccines, not cheap, but something that was required to address a global challenge. Well, we're in a different global challenge, and we're going to have to have everybody stepping up, but this is a collaboration that I think, I mean, we saw this actually with COVID.

Martha Hall Findlay:

A huge amount of collaboration, certainly Suncor, and Air Canada, and a bunch of other companies involved with the Creative Destruction Lab out of UFT on rapid testing kits. And how do we get them into our workplaces, and how do we collaborate with governments on how we get this out? And Suncor and some of the other rural sands companies with vaccine clinics, we're working with governments to get things done. That's actually pretty fantastic.

Martha Hall Findlay:

The climate change challenge requires huge collaboration as well. And if we know that investors are going to be looking for high return, they're going to be looking for high return. For some of this technology that is not revenue generating carbon capture and storage right now, maybe use at some point, but carbon capture and storage does not generate revenue.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It's not going to get built by the private sector alone, it can't, which is why you see huge, the Northern Lights CCUS Project in Norway, huge government engagement in that. The big announcement I mentioned in the Netherlands multi-billions of euros, a recognition that it isn't going to happen, because private sectors have an obligation to their investors. We simply can't invest or build projects that will lose us money, or be to the detriment of higher return activities.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It's the nature of the beast, but that collaboration with government is hugely important. And I often talk, so this bit of a roundabout way, Caitlin, to your answer, we forget when we get so caught up in investing, and government programs to invest in this startup, and that startup. And it's exciting what those companies need, what those startups need more than anything, are big customers.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And those big customers happen when big companies like Suncor collaborate with big governments like the Canadian Government to say, "Canada is a leader in CCUS, we built in Saskatchewan, the boundary dam and then Quest and Alberta, and then we kind of stopped. We're on the cusp of something really big again, and we're already exporting some of that technology." But the innovation happens when you put the money into building, and you put the money into where you have customers that are saying, "Can you do this differently? Can you do this more quickly? Can you do this more cleanly?"

Martha Hall Findlay:

I think there are huge opportunities, but to assume that corporates are going to do it on their own, it ain't going to happen. We see, again, to enter the government policy piece, government has a huge role to play. We saw what happened with the auto sector, right? It wasn't that long ago in the Canadian Government gave billions of dollars. Not all they got came back by the way.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But billions of dollars for the auto sector. Well, we have climate change to deal with, let's work, let's figure this out. And I just want to share it out to the federal government right now, because that federal budget that just came out recently was a huge step in the direction of, the answer is not just shutting this stuff in the ground, because there is global demand, and there's going to be global demand for quite a long time to government. Frankly we want Canada to be a preferred source of that.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But how do we do it? How do we make it better? How do we make it cleaner at the far end? All of those things. But if you look at the United States has attracted a fair bit of CCUS infrastructure because of their 45Q in effect tax credit regime. The federal government announced in the recent budget, investment tax credits, significantly increased funding for a number of programs that are really geared toward innovation.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But on a scale now in the billions of dollars, that actually might work, that might get us to, to building some of these things, and to allowing that customer driver to say, "We're building this, and we need this technology." It's a collaboration, and I really do think, I mean, COVID has just been awful, but it is actually a silver lining that we have learned just how valuable and effective corporate private sector can be. This is far bigger than public private partnerships, this is an attitudinal shift that we're all in this together.

Caitlin MacLean:

Exactly. I think it's one of the things they mentioned in terms of the kind of not wanting to lose money. It's interesting because I think, the carbon capture and storage component of it, apart from things like 45Q, right? Which are trying to make it more interesting for investors, and make some of that investment opportunity pencil.

Caitlin MacLean:

What I think is also interesting, and this is what I was getting at before is, for those who are making investments, right? Whether it's the governments, or the large corporates who are making investments, let's say, in the Northern Lights Project, is there a way for the capital markets, and the systems through which investors understand risk, and therefore how they price their capital? If that can be somehow rewarded, right?

Caitlin MacLean:

The question becomes, how do you reward people who are making investments in something that are going to benefit, or how do you penalize people who are not, right? How do you look at companies, or countries who are making those investments in a way that does overall reduce their environmental footprint, and perhaps make them a bit more resilient to certainly some of the effects of climate change, and can they then be rewarded in the form of lower cost of capital, basically, a lower risk profile?

Caitlin MacLean:

I think that's where, hopefully, with some of the disclosures, and some of the standardization that we've talked about in terms of what you all are already doing Saxby, and GRI, and TCFD. If that can be helpful to really prove out that thesis, that because you are investing in something that might not be revenue generating right now, and it might just be doing something for the environment that's desperately needed, then is that something that you should be rewarded for, through things like better ratings, better credit ratings? I think that that's-

Martha Hall Findlay:

It won't happen if there's no reward, that's the challenge we're facing. It will not get built, it will not get explored, it will not get done if there is, I mean, this is the world we live in, right? There is a market-based aspect to this and a market-based aspect to investment. That fact alone is why governments have to be so much more involved and governments are involved in a lot of other things.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Governments have been hugely involved in the vaccination program. If we feel strongly, collectively, and also wealthy countries not to the exclusion of developing countries, because that's going to be huge, right? There's an element of, okay, the reality is not everybody around the world is going to be able to stop using fossil fuels. I don't say that because I work for an oil company, I work for an oil company, partly because of a recognition that what we produce is actually still really needed, and is going to continue to be needed.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Let's figure out how to make it cleaner, let's figure out how to address combustion, which 70 or 80% of it is when it's combusted. That's why I'm so interested in some of these other technologies that are storage. Whether it's CCUS, whether it's in concrete, whether it's an asphalt, whether it's an... Well, asphalt's not a good example, concrete's a better example because it's actually CO2 emissions that get stored.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Because the reality is, we need to pull emissions out of the air, and they're even carbon engineering, there's some direct air capture technologies that are really interesting as well. Caitlin, I worry, I might've interrupted you there, but it's just such an important point to recognize that you know what? If the money is not there, it ain't going to happen unfortunately.

Caitlin MacLean:

Exactly, and that's where I think it's just reframing what is the reward, right? Is the reward not being penalized, right? I think that's the question. But I'm just curious at one point that you were mentioning in terms of the types of technologies, because we've been talking to a variety of corporates, some of that is not necessarily just on the energy side. There are certainly areas around building materials like concrete and cement, certainly thinking about kind of or regenerative agriculture, kind of water use issues.

Caitlin MacLean:

There's a whole host of new technologies that we need to get to not just for emissions, but general environmental impact. And I'm curious where you guys are seeing, and maybe making some investments in technologies that maybe are not yet revenue generating, have the potential to be if they get some of those bigger customers down the road, just curious, where are you guys are seeing some really interesting kind of potential for some of those technologies?

Martha Hall Findlay:

All of them actually. We're even looking at some of the regenerative agriculture stuff. Partly just because of interests, some of the stuff that comes through our doors, you go, "Oh, that could be really cool." And we have our senior management, Mark Little, our whole ELT Group. And the fact that the chief sustainability officer is a member of the executive team. I mean, it's not an afterthought, these are the kinds of conversations that happen all the time.

Martha Hall Findlay:

But they're always qualified with, but we need to be a successful business, but that does not prevent looking at some of these really interesting things. Whether it's A, whether it's potentially director capture, whether it's certainly water, we developed over the years a system where we don't need tailings, and we're actually reducing the amount of tailings associated with our oil sands operations close to 90 something percent recycling of water, but also just the technology in reducing what we have to actually get rid of.

Martha Hall Findlay:

It takes time, but those kinds of developments are really interesting, because it is more than greenhouse gas emissions, obviously that's the elephant in the room. But there are other environmental concerns associated with this environmental and social. And the recognition of ESG as a package of things that are really important is I think, it's really important because it is the packaging, it is sustainability, it is the sustainable development goals, right? It's prosperity too for not just the planet, but people. And so we have to look at all of those, but I realize I like Dan, we've just been yakking, we can [crosstalk 00:48:32].

Dan Barclay:

We can go on [crosstalk] all day.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Sorry to [crosstalk].

Dan Barclay:

I was going to draw a thread, that's come out. And I think that's something that we've observed at BMO a lot. Is this concept of incentive versus penalty. And in lots of the conversation for the last five years, it's been, let's hit everybody with a big hammer. We'll penalize, we'll divest, we'll get into those outcomes. And that's a failed strategy, right? It does not work.

Dan Barclay:

And I think the most encouraging thing in the last 12 to 24 months is we're moving to the incentive model. And I would say across the CEOs, and companies that we covered, we are now seeing people take and think of it this way. We're bragging about how great they're ESG now. And when you start to say that, and I start to think about mining companies, or real estate companies, and they are now investing in new technologies, they're incorporating them because they believe in a couple of fundamental thesis, right?

Dan Barclay:

Number one is, just call them good citizen, let's start with that, they're good citizens. Number two is, they can actually drive down their op costs. And so you think about what's a good example, Martha? Electronic trucking, right? Big, huge, long haul trucks, we're not there yet, we went driverless first, but one day we'll get to, and we experimented a bunch of places on big huge EV trucks. While the reason people are experimenting is actually not because it's just good for the environment, it's because of driving down op costs. And as you drive op cost-

Martha Hall Findlay:

All autonomous haul trucks they're not electric, but they are autonomous, and they don't have to stop. I mean, in and of itself, that's costs way less for the trucks, they're on all the time. It gets foggy, you don't actually have to stop, because they're not reliable.

Dan Barclay:

And ironically they emit less, right?

Martha Hall Findlay:

And they emit less.

Dan Barclay:

It's time to see-

Martha Hall Findlay:

Because we're not [crosstalk 00:50:25].

Dan Barclay:

That's right. What I've seen around the world now is that, it's become not a virtue, which it was for a little while. It's now actually a business reality that if I do my business better, we make better margins, my share price goes up. Well, I can tell you that corporate behavior, once you get to the incentive model goes crazy. And innovation, if you think about what we've done in EV vehicles and the speed of development there, is probably one of the fastest industrial developments in our history.

Dan Barclay:

One of things I was going to bring up as you think about government and solar, at the beginning solar was uneconomic. Today there's very little government incentive in solar, almost nothing. And why? Because from the beginning investment prove the model, then get to industrial distribution. You can do it in a place where you don't need support, right?

Dan Barclay:

That's the kind of thing I'm getting with carbon capture, it needs to get started, but it doesn't need government money forever. It just needs to get started. And then you need to get the low cost carbon. I thought one of the things we might do is let's try and bring Jonathan in, he's the head of our sustainable finance and Jonathan, I thought you might touch on a couple of the other industries, where we're seeing innovation, and how we're responding, how the banks are responding [inaudible] for BMO, but how the banks are responding to support that innovation and things we're watching?

Jonathan Hackett:

I think one place I'd start is actually carbon as an industry. We've talked a lot about this from the perspective of established corporates that are thinking about how they're going to address their environmental footprint. But as we look at companies that have core focused on carbon, I break those down into two different vehicles. One are companies that are using the technology solution, things like carbon cure, I touched on a few times, where they are thinking about how they can advance their solution, and bring it to the market.

Jonathan Hackett:

The other though is pure financial place, companies that are looking and saying, "How do I bring the financial technology that has worked in other industries, and use that to bring the carbon market forward?" As you talk about solar, that's one where the term we keep on throwing around is carbon purchase agreements. The solution of power purchase agreements that has allowed solar power to become extremely financeable, if there's a way to port that technology, that financial technology over into the carbon world.

Jonathan Hackett:

It's possible that we can get the acceleration that we saw in the solar world and bring it forward faster. The other is royalty arrangements, structurally and innovation really from the metals and mining space, or a streaming arrangements, and looking at if there are ways to financialize those different vehicles, those different carbon projects, and bring the capital that's needed in order to drive them forward.

Jonathan Hackett:

As we look at how we can bring these different solutions. One thing I am struck by is, as we were talking about that policy piece, and the penalty versus incentive model, one of the places that we really are going to struggle within a penalty model versus an incentive model in carbon is the experience group. And the idea of what does a first mover get by going in?

Jonathan Hackett:

And that's where things like the 45Q or the ITC that's been proposed in the budget, we see as really compelling in this space, because they scale in the right way, they provide the capital upfront that incentivizes early movers. And we think that if these tools really do hit something that is financeable, then you're going to really see people coming in early driving things forward, and then we can get to those more regular parts of the curve, where it is just about piling in more capital over time and bringing those costs down until it's just a background part of the economy.

Dan Barclay:

That's great. Thanks, Jonathan on those. I know you're just putting lots and lots of times on how do we innovate. We're growing to the end with a few minutes left. What I thought we would do is, let's go through just a quick question each. What are you most optimistic for around this conversation in the next 12 to 24 months? Martha, let's start with you.

Martha Hall Findlay:

Thanks, Dan. And I noticed another question, how do we reconcile quarterly reporting with the long term? It's part and parcel of the same thing. We are businesses, I can tell you around our table, we don't look at quarters where much more year three, five, and longer. We're an oil sands company, it was only ever established because of a multi-decade view of life. We're good about that, I think, but it's an important question.

Martha Hall Findlay:

The thing I'm most excited about ties into this whole penalty versus incentive, I think people are realizing that the importance of the incentive piece, and that's not to sound greedy or anything. It's just to recognize that if you penalize too much, you just put people out of business. And I know that there's some people who would love to put fossil fuels out of business, but that is focusing on supply, not demand.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And so I go back to my earlier point, there are millions and millions of people around the world who would love to be able to spend a century. We spend a century in the developed world taking advantage of cheap, easily transportable, easily usable fuel. How do we allow the developing world to develop in a way that assures that kind of prosperity, and potential while at the same time, addressing climate change?

Martha Hall Findlay:

Just shutting the taps off only pushes it off to those jurisdictions that don't care. That's the penalty versus incentive. You penalize people, and we've seen this already in my industry, the penalizing of people who have emissions that are too high, some companies just said, "Well, we'll divest. We're going to divest these high emitting assets, and aren't we wonderful because our GHG emissions profile has gone down."

Martha Hall Findlay:

Well, that does absolutely nothing for global emissions, not only that it often sends those assets into either jurisdictions, or companies that do not actually comply, or feel the need to comply with some of disclosure requirements. And so we just have to be really careful over the next 12 months and beyond, let's not forget that this is a global challenge, and we need to make sure that we remember that not everybody around the world feels the same way, and those returns are going to be there.

Martha Hall Findlay:

And if people are going to continue to demand oil and gas, it's all well and good for a couple of wealthy countries to say, "Well, we're not going to produce." But that's crazy. I'm looking forward to the increased sort of pulling back to, oh, maybe that wasn't the smartest thing to do. The thing that I'm most excited about is a bit of a reality check and how do we actually all collaborate to find those solutions on a global basis?

Dan Barclay:

I like that well. Caitlin.

Caitlin MacLean:

I would say, first and foremost, I'm looking forward to seeing all of you in person at some point in the next year, where hopefully we cannot be on a Zoom. But no, I think that I'm echoing what Martha said, I think we're excited to see obviously the movement towards better collaboration. As we talked about seeing corporates working with governments, working with investors, working with communities.

Caitlin MacLean:

I think that awareness as you started the conversation about Indigenous People's Month, I think it's that awareness where I go into conversations now where 10, 15 years ago, people kind of rolled their eyes about ESG. And now you hear them talking about a community impact, you hear them talking about regenerative agriculture, you hear people talking so much more, and there is much more education and awareness. Just excited for what can come over the next 12 months as more disclosures come on board and kind of standardization there, how much more education, and awareness can really grow.

Dan Barclay:

That's great, and Jonathan.

Jonathan Hackett:

I think what I'm most excited about is what I'm seeing in the convergence between procurement, corporate development, and sustainability. And Martha and Caitlin touched on it earlier, but the idea that your wallet can really drive innovation, and that if you're thinking about your wallet strategically as part of your sustainability strategy and your corporate development strategy, there's an amazing potential to have impact as a scaled corporate on the environment, and on your sustainability trajectory while also making money and driving the right outcomes for your shareholders.

Dan Barclay:

That's great. Let me say thank you to all those that dialed in, we very much appreciate your participation. I think you find this to be a very lively conversation. Thank you to Martha, thank you to Caitlin, thank you to Jonathan. This will be replayed on the BMO Sustainability Podcast, if you'd like to tie into that. And we very much appreciate participation and joining the conversation about more sustainable future. Thank you and have a great afternoon.

Michael Torrance:

Thanks for listening to Sustainability Leaders, this podcast is presented by BMO Financial Group. To access all the resources we discussed in today's episode, and to see our other podcasts, visit us at bmo.com/sustainabilityleaders. You can listen and subscribe free to our show on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast provider. And we'll greatly appreciate a rating, and review, and any feedback that you might have. Our show and resources are produced with support from BMO's marketing team and Puddle Creative. Until next time, I'm Michael Torrance, have a great week.

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